Elif Shafak: We forgot how to say: I don't know

Credit: Ferhat Elik

Elif Shafak is an award-winning British-Turkish novelist. She has published 19 books, 12 of which are novels. She is a bestselling author in many countries around the world and her work has been translated into 55 languages. "10 Minutes 38 Seconds in this Strange World" was shortlisted for the Booker Prize and RSL Ondaatje Prize; and was Blackwell’s Book of the Year. "The Forty Rules of Love" was chosen by BBC among the 100 Novels that Shaped Our World. 'The Architect’s Apprentice" was chosen for the Duchess of Cornwall’s inaugural book club, The Reading Room.
Shafak holds a PhD in political science and she has taught at various universities in Turkey, the US and the UK, including St Anne's College, Oxford University, where she is an honorary fellow. She also holds a Doctorate of Humane Letters from Bard College. Shafak is a Fellow and a Vice President of the Royal Society of Literature. She was a member of Weforum Global Agenda Council on Creative Economy and a founding member of ECFR (European Council on Foreign Relations). An advocate for women's rights, LGBTQ+ rights and freedom of expression, Shafak is an inspiring public speaker and twice TED Global speaker. Shafak contributes to major publications around the world and she was awarded the medal of Chevalier de l’Ordre des Arts et des Lettres. In 2017 she was chosen by Politico as one of the twelve people “who will give you a much needed lift of the heart”. She has judged numerous literary prizes, including PEN Nabokov prize and she has chaired the Wellcome Prize. Recently Shafak was awarded the Halldór Laxness International Literature Prize for her contribution to 'the renewal of the art of storytelling.'

What are the lessons from the pandemic, why do we experiencing a crisis of meaning, should you be a good listener and observer to be a good writer, is the listening crisis the foundation of all the other crises that we are experiencing right now, what are the news that will matter in 50 years from now - I had the chance to discuss these and many more questions with the great Elif Shafak.

Elif, almost 2 years since the pandemic - what are the main lessons that we should learn from it?
I think this is an important crossroads. We have to understand that the old world is no more, but the new world is not born yet. And we are in the middle. So it's a time of uncertainties, it's a time of change. I think we have entered the age of pessimism, the age of anxiety. There's an existential angst almost. At a time like this we have to rethink our values, what are our priorities. Do we want more money, more profit, more corporate greed at the expense of destroying this planet? Or do we want to restructure our values, our priorities and pay more attention to coexistence, democracy, but also immaterial things? I think it's an important time to rethink our values both individually and collectively.

In your book „How to stay sane in an age of division“ you say that we are going through a crisis of meaning. Why do you think is that? Do we look for a meaning in the wrong places?
I think we're experiencing a crisis of meanings because for a long time we have taken for granted we thought what we knew what democracy means. And many people thought that in the western world you didn't have to worry about democracy, you didn't have to worry about women's rights, you didn't have to worry about human rights or freedom of speech. But I think we cannot take it for granted. And democracy is a much more delicate ecosystem of checks and balances. We need to become more engaged citizens, we need to keep democracy alive. The elections is not enough to sustain a democracy. Of course, elections are very important. But in addition you need rule of law, separation of powers, free and diverse media,  independent academia, women's rights,  human rights, freedom of speech. Together with all those things democracy thrives.

In the book you write that „The belief that tomorrow will be better is gone”. Where do you think this age of despair will lead us?
When I look at our grandmother's generations and the generations before, of course, they have experienced lots of hardships. It was not an easy time. But they always retained the belief that tomorrow would somehow be better than yesterday. That if you gave your children a better education than the education that you had, they would have a better future, better job opportunities. Today that faith is no more, it is gone. So not many people today believe that if the younger generations have a better education, they're going to have a better job market. At the time when we have climate crisis, not many people feel optimistic that tomorrow is going to be better than yesterday. So in the age of pandemic, in the age of climate crisis, we are dealing with lots and lots of negative emotions. And I am saying: "It is okay to sometimes feel angry. It is okay to sometimes feel anxious. We cannot be cheerful, optimistic all the time. We don't have to.
I have a positive view on pessimism. For me the important thing is what do we do with our anger, what do we do with our anxiety, so how do we turn negative emotions into something more positive - both for ourselves, but also for our societies.
There's one thing that scares me - that is the lack of all emotions, which is numbness, which is apathy, when we become disconnected, indifferent,  desensitized, when we stop caring about each other. I think that's a very dangerous threshold for humanity.

And why do you think we need "the pessimism of the intellect and the optimism of the heart" to stay sane today?
I think a healthy dose of pessimism is not a bad thing. Because we need a bit more pessimism of the mind to understand what's happening in the world, to be more aware, to be more cognizant of what is at stake. So it's understandable that we don't feel very optimistic intellectually. However too much pessimism also weighs us down, it pulls us down, it's not a good thing. So we need a healthy dose of optimism as well. We need both in this age. We need a bit of hope as well.
And where do we find hope in an age as difficult as ours? In order to find optimism, in order to find hope, we have to look at our own fellow human beings. Because there are things in this world that have always been stronger than divisions and polarization.
So what I'm trying to say is - love, friendship, solidarity, sisterhood, whatever you call it, the way we connect as human beings beyond borders is incredible. And it's very strong. And it's still there. You are from Bulgaria, I'm from Turkey and look at us, we connect, we go beyond our own borders and we understand each other, we connect emotionally and intellectually. I don't belittle this. I don't underestimate this. There's an amazing source of hope in the way human beings can connect. But for that we have to understand that we're all citizens of humanity, we're all citizens of the world.
Unfortunately we're living in a time that doesn't allow us to say: "I have local attachments, I love my country, and at the same time I'm a citizen of humanity. We can be both at the same time".

Credit: Ferhat Elik

How the sudden silence of the lockdown affected your writing?

Some people think that writers won't be affected from the lockdown because writers are solitary creatures,  they're used to working from home, they don't go to office. I've seen some publishers say such things. But in my experience writers have been affected a lot - sentimentally, emotionally. Of course, we are affected, we are not immune to what's happening in the world. When there's so much pain, suffering, uncertainty, when people are dying, when people are losing their jobs, it's affecting all of us. So writers are not outside of this world. And emotionally it's a very difficult time for all of us as human beings.
That is why I find it healthier to be able to talk about all the difficult emotions that we struggle with,  including mental health, including anxiety, depression. Let's talk about these things. It's better than pretending they do not exist.
I also think if there's one silver lining in this tunnel of pandemic that we're going through, it is that we understood that we need books more, we need to read more. All around the world people are reading more right now. This is a time when we need the art of storytelling all the more, we need to nourish our inner garden in order to be more balanced and engaged human beings.

Should you be a good observer to be a good writer?

I think in order to be a good writer first and foremost we need to be good readers. Writers are readers. We need to keep reading and learning. But learning not only from our own fields, learning from across the board, from many disciplines. To read history, philosophy, neuroscience, climate science. Writers need to be students of life. So reading is important. But also, as you said, listening. I try to listen to what people are saying all the time. I listen to what they're saying, but also how they are saying what they're saying, with what kind of energy, choice of words. So we do observe a lot, of course.
I think we need to be very good listeners and respect people from different backgrounds, try to understand their sorrows, their dreams, don't judge harshly. Understanding is an important part of a writer's life.

The Israeli novelist David Grossman said that he can feel when a story comes to life. How is it with you?  How was with your new novel?

It doesn't matter whether it's your first novel or third novel or tenth novel. I think as writers we always go through moments of self-doubt. And then some weeks you feel like you have a great story, some other weeks you feel down. It's all part of the writing process. So it's not a linear journey. You go through emotional ups and downs. But when I'm writing a novel I always feel free, I feel like I can be multiple. And I feel a sense of freedom like I feel in no other place. So I feel like storyland is my homeland, it is where I belong. And when I finish a novel, sometimes I feel sad because I have to let it go, I have to give it to my editor and then watch the book being published. So when I'm between novels, I feel a little bit lost, to be honest.

And how is it now? Are you lost now?

Yeah, Ii'm between novels right now. It's a moment when I listen to the universe. I read a lot, I absorb, I observe. 

In your new novel "The island of missing trees" Ada screams in her classroom and the video of her screaming became viral with the hashtag #doyouhearmenow. So do we need always to scream to be heard?
It's such a great question. There is a scream building up inside of so many of us and there are times when we feel like we want to scream. It doesn't mean we do scream, but we we feel the need. There are lots of things that make us angry, that makes us frustrated. Also it's very interesting that at the time of digital technologies and social media, when we were all supposed to have an equal voice, in reality millions and millions of people continue to feel voiceless. People feel like their voices are not heard by politicians, by the elite. That creates a sense as if you're trapped. Also it's the time of climate crisis. There are lots of uncertainties and the possibility of another pandemic. It's a time of anxiety. And that too adds to this scream building up inside. 
But to be honest, I think it's not only human beings that are holding a scream. Nature too is screaming.  But we don't hear it.

Is the listening crisis the foundation of all the other crises that we are experiencing right now?
I really think so. We have forgotten how to listen to each other. Everybody wants to talk over each other without really listening. And I find that very problematic. Also this is the age of polarization. The media also wants to have two people from opposite sides shouting at each other because it's supposed to be higher ratings. I find it so destructive. I think a proper intellectual exchange means: "I have my opinions, I have my thoughts, but I'm here to listen to you. And if what you say makes sense to me, I'm ready to revise my own opinion".
So these clashing certainties are a very dangerous. Absolutism is a very dangerous thing. We always should have a little bit of self-doubt, not be that 100%  sure of our own truths, be ready to empathize. But for that we need the art of storytelling. Because if I know someone's story, then I can feel their their pain, their joy. If I don't know their stories, they're just numbers. People are just numbers otherwise and they can be dehumanized so easily. In order to rehumanize those who have been deharmonized, we need the art of storytelling, we need literature.

You often say that "the opposite of goodness is not necessarily evil. It's apathy. And that the most dangerous emotion is the lack of emotion. So when do you think is the best time to listen and observe and when to speak up?
I think they go hand in hand. I mean to be good listeners doesn't mean we should be silent, it doesn't mean we should be passive. Just the opposite. We should also speak up and speak out about our values, principles,  the things we really care about. I also believe that it's very important that we, women, speak up louder, we need to be heard, our voices need to be in the public space. Not only women but also minorities. We need diversity and inclusion in the public space.
The problem with the world we're living in is that many people who are moderates are so tired. There's a fatigue, every day something is happening and people are tired of all this chaos and cacophony. So the moderates take a step back and the extremes dominate the public space. And that is not a good thing for democracy. We all need to participate, we all need to hear each other's voices. But especially as women we need to be in politics, in arts, in media, academia, in every sphere of life. Women need to be in the decision-making processes.

In your new novel you give instructions how to bury and and unbury a tree. What do you think is better -  to bury or unbury the painful emotions?
That's such an interesting question. I am very interested in this duality between memory and amnesia. I come from turkey - it's a country with a very complex history, rich history, but that doesn't mean strong memory. Just the opposite. I think in Turkey we're a society of collective amnesia. Our entire relationship with the past is broken. It's full of ruptures and when you have these ruptures, when you have this void, that void is filled in by ultra nationalist or Islamist interpretations of the past. This idea that we were a glorious empire, this imperial nostalgia, that's not healthy. We should be able to talk about the past in a calmer way - both the beauties of the past but also the mistakes and sometimes even the atrocities of the past. We should be able to talk about this memory is a responsible way, not in order to get stuck in the past, but to learn from the past, to recognize people's pain. And also hopefully never ever make the same mistakes again.
The official history is always top down,  is always a single narrative, but as a writer I want to pay attention to those people whose voices, whose stories have been erased, forgotten and never ever included in the official history. So I am interested in minorities, I am interested in anyone who feels like the other. I want to bring the periphery to the center. I want to make the invisible a bit more visible, the unheard a bit more heard, and give more voice to the voiceless. So i'm interested in the untold stories.

Credit: Ferhat Elik

Is this why you always write about taboo topics?
I don't think I write always about taboo subjects. I write about the subjects that I really, really care about. However the subjects that you care about can easily offend authorities in Turkey. If there is no democracy, anything can offend the authorities. Talk about history, they are offended. You talk about sexuality, they are offended. You talk about gender violence, they are  offended. It's because there's no proper democracy and they don't understand that art needs freedom. Literature needs freedom in order to breathe, in order to flourish.
As a storyteller I love asking questions. I think it's the writer's job to ask questions, it is not a writer's job to try to give the answers. Because I don't know the answers myself. We're all learning, we're all discovering together. But I want to be able to ask questions and open free spaces,  where a diversity of opinions can be heard. The novel as a genre is one of our last remaining democratic spaces. And then you leave the answers to the reader, because every reader is going to come up with their own answers. But my job as a writer is to be able to tell a story from different angles and create a democratic, diverse space.

You have two children - a daughter and a son. What do you teach them?
It's not an easy age for young people. And there are lots of challenges with the social media, with the climate crisis. I think we need to teach not only our younger generations but also ourselves, we need to teach how to be a better human being. It sounds very simple but actually it's very difficult -  how can I be a better human being? Do I want to contribute to hatred or do I want to contribute to love? Do I want to put another brick to make the walls higher or I want to contribute to bridges?

I am asking you because femicide is a big problem in Turkey and also in Bulgaria. Do you think that what parents teach their children - both girls and boys, plays a big role for this?
Indeed, and I think we need change. We need urgent, immediate, social,  legal, political change. Sometimes people think gender violence is not an urgent issue, that it can be dealt with later, it can be postponed. No, it cannot be postponed, it is an urgent issue. And also with the pandemic all around the world violence against women and domestic violence escalated - every statistics shows this.
Again I come from a country where unfortunately there is a lot of misogyny, sexism, homophobia and violence against women, and we need to face this,we need to deal with this. The laws need to be changed, the police need to change their mentality. Sometimes when women go to police, the policeman says: "You should go back to your husband,  that's that's where you belong". Or he doesn't give them protection.
There is a lot that needs to be changed. We need to change our mentalities. This is a very patriarchal world. We need more gender equality, gender awareness.
But if I may add this - sometimes people think that if you're a feminist, you don't care about the happiness of men. Not at all, not at all. I think a feminist is someone who cares about equality, who cares about justice. I am longing for a kind of women's movement that also respects and understands the difficulties that men go through in a patriarchal society. The reason why I say this is because I have seen in Turkey, where there's strict patriarchy, women are oppressed, women are not free, but men are not happy either. Especially young men cannot be happy, cannot be free, where there's strict patriarchy. So we need to work together. This is not a zero-sum game, like man versus women. It's not like that. We need to create a more egalitarian, peaceful, inclusive society for the benefit of both men and women.

Nations that fail women fail, reads a recent "Еconomist" article. Societies that oppress women are more likely to be unstable and violent, it says. You touch this topic very often. And the most recent example is Afghanistan. But you also said that "no democracy is immune and extremism is not reserved only for  the countries in the East. In this sense, what do you think should be the role of both women and men to address this?
Until recently people used to think that the Western world was safe and steady. And in the Western world you didn't have to worry about the future of women's rights, you didn't have to worry about the future of democracy. It was in the Eastern world or which was regarded as the liquid countries where you had to worry about the future of democracy or women's rights.
I think after 2016 especially this has been shuttered to pieces, because in 2016 and afterwards Trump happened. We have seen the rise of populist movements in country after country. And people realize that actually even in the Western world we can lose the rights that we take for granted. I think this is very important. Like for instance what's happening in Texas, in America right now. This extreme abortion ban which is so awful. It asks citizens to spy on each other. So if you're an Uber driver taking women to a clinic, you can be also prosecuted or investigated. So it's in a way creating this fear in the society, it's a very extreme form of abortion ban.
What I'm trying to say is countries can go backwards and when that happens, when countries become more nationalistic, more religious,  more populist, more authoritarian, the first rights that will be cut off will be women's rights and minority rights. These will be the first things that will be taken away. So as women we need to be more passionate defenders of democracy and diversity.

If you were a news producer what news would you put today in the agenda? What are the news that you think will matter in 50 years from now?

This is a wonderful question and it's a question that we don't ask ourselves much but we should. I put more news about what's happening to our planet, to nature, to the environment. Because what is happening right now is going to have huge impact in the long run. I would share more news about humanity. Because sometimes news are only focusing on violence and scandals and awful things happening. But we lose track of all the other things that are also happening - such as the way we connect, the way we coexist, the way we build. We should not lose sight of that either.
I would definitely put more emphasis on culture, arts, literature. This is not a luxury. Sometimes politicians behave as if arts and culture is something that can be discarded, сt's not the main thing, it's not as vital as economy. But I'm thinking if you take arts and culture from a society that society will disintegrate, it will break apart. Because art and culture - this is the glue that keeps us together. It helps us to understand each other better, when we share each other's stories. Also it gives a chance to children and young people coming from disadvantaged backgrounds to find a way, to find a voice. Sometimes for a young person who doesn't have any other economic means, music is the only way to connect with the world. If you can teach that child how to play an instrument how to paint,  how to dance,  their lives can be completely different. 

You often say that "we live in an age with excessive information, with less knowledge and very little wisdom". Where do you think this will lead us?
Every day we're bombarded by information and the truth is we cannot process this much information and we do not process it. But we have very little time for proper knowledge and even less time for wisdom. So we need to change this ratio. Let's spend less time with snippets of information but let's spend more time for knowledge. For that we need to slow down. Because knowledge cannot be rushed. For knowledge we need books, we need nuance conversations, we need investigative journalism. And for wisdom we need to bring the mind and the heart together, we need emotional intelligence, we need empathy. And for that we need arts and stories.
But what I'm trying to say is the age we're living in makes us not only ignorant but also arrogant. We forgot how to say: "I don't know". When was the last time we ever said: "I don't know". Sometimes we say: "I don't know" if children ask us difficult questions. We say: "Oh, I don't know". But between adults we don't say: "I don't know" anymore. You can ask me anything,  whatever you want, if I don't know the answer, I can google it in the next 5 minutes, I can come up with a little bit of an answer giving me the illusion that I know something about the subject. But in fact I don't know anything about the subject. So we forgot to face our own lack of knowledge, we don't know how to say: "I don't know" anymore, which I think is a very bad thing. When you realize what you don't know,  it's a humbling thing for the soul. We need more humility. We don't need more arrogance, we need more humility!