What makes a great listener?
Oh, well first of all you need to know what listening really is. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that you have to know what you want to get from the conversation, or the interview, or whatever it is. And you must decide what you're listening for. So you must have an outcome. You must know what you want to get. So you must think - do I want facts, am I looking for emotions, am I looking for a mixture of the two, am I listening for motivators, am I listening for all of those things? So you're trying to work out the values and the beliefs of the person in front of you. You can work them out so that when you put forward your proposal, or your argument, or whatever it is your solution, that actually you're talking to them and not to yourself. Because so often, what we do, is we think that's a good idea and we have all these real good plans in our own head but it may not suit the other person.

So you should be aware first about the outcome of this conversation? That's the key?
Exactly. Absolutely key. And to set your mindset. So what did you want to get from this talk that we're having now? What you want is a decent interview and that you can create a decent piece for your paper. So you're listening for keywords, you're looking for this kind of hints that I'm giving, you're listening for tips, you're listening for sound bites, so all of that's in your mind already. So as I start to talk and I start to say things, you're thinking - I can use that, I can use that. 

But doesn't this compromise the conversation to some extent?
But what's the alternative? To sit and listen to something with nothing in mind. That doesn't make any sense. I think the questions that you want answered, will compromise the conversation because as soon as you ask me a question, you change the subject. 

But doesn't this change the natural conversation flow by having in mind something particular?
Well okay, let's imagine that you and I are just talking in a bar. And we're talking about our lives. So let's imagine that's just a normal conversation. In that case you're not going to be listening as you do now because it's just a conversation. But when you're doing an interview like this, then you should be listening a lot harder than you would do in the bar. This is a move from what  they call the subconscious competence. So in other words you're great at having conversations but when it comes to listening at this level or the "elite level"  then it's very different.  Then you have to work at it. 

What is the elite level of conversation?
The elite level of conversation it's the identification, selection and interpretation of keywords that turn information into intelligence. 

There are many researches showing that the closer we feel towards someone the less likely we are to listen carefully to them. Has this tendency to tune out our closest people changed during the pandemic? 
I think we always take more liberties with our family than we do with our workmates. And that's because the closer we are to that person the more we think we know them. And therefore we're not paying as much attention as we should. I think with the pandemic everybody's frustrated, everybody's worried in their own way. We're all struggling because we're not doing what we normally do. So we're all trying to adapt to a new way of life. And so when someone says I feel really bad: "Yes, thank you for that. I feel bad as well". So they get a little bit frustrated. 

If you think of the pandemic as a traffic jam, you're driving along quite happily and it stops. And you're thinking what's going on here? You wait there for half an hour and then it starts to move a bit. You think, oh it's okay, we start moving now. Then you go a little bit further and it stops again. And you think: Well, what is going on now ? Because it's the second time, you become a little bit more frustrated. And then it starts going again and then it stops again.You think where is the police, what are they doing about this etc etc etc. This is the trouble with the pandemic. 

So every time we think we kind of get over it and we can come out of lockdown, it stops again. And then it starts again. And it stops again. And of course it's becoming more and more frustrating to everybody. Because it's like a traffic jam that's not going to stop, you're in a traffic jam for the rest of your life. That's what it feels like. So we become frustrated. Because when you're in a traffic jam, you're out of control, you can't do anything about it. So we are frustrated.

And where this frustration could go - in the family or in the outside the world?
It can be anything at all. You get protests, you get anti-vaccine protests, you get all sorts of things. Because people are frustrated and they want to blame somebody for it. So they blame authority and then you'll see them fighting with the police. 

Is there a hope? 
Of course. These are just periods. It will stop and sooner or later the vaccine will come and they'll be okay. 

And the frustration will go away?
Well, the frustration will take some time. But of course it's like everything else you know. The problem comes now as it's happened once and therefore you're not sure if it's not going to happen again. So you're kind of watching a little bit carefully. Then you'll watch carefully for a year. And then after a year everyone will start to relax and come back to normal. Well as normal as you can do - a lot of things have changed because the pandemic has shown that some things work better doing in this way than it does the other way.

How do we listen in times of crisis?
Imagine you're back in the car. We're driving along and you're frustrated because you're stuck in this traffic. And your kids are in the back and they ask why it takes so long. And their frustration adds to your frustration. You become out of control. And then you start shouting at the kids and they get upset. That's what's happening now because everyone's frustrated.
Normally if you're listening to someone in crisis - they're in crisis and you're not. So therefore it's easier to listen to them. 

So we don't actually listen in times of crisis? We shout out?
Well, we don't always shout. I mean some people listen better than others. But I think the problem is that we're equally frustrated as the person we're talking to. If you're dealing with someone who's got a problem and you haven't got the problem they have, you don't feel as bad about it as they do, and therefore you can listen to them a lot easier.

Then crisis are not a good time to become a great listener?
They are a very good time to become a great listener, but it is much more difficult. 

How listening could help us become more trusted and liked?
If you understand me, then I feel understood. If I feel understood, then I trust you. If you don't understand me, then I don't feel understood and if I don't feel understood, then I look at you and think: Well, I don't trust you. You don't even know what I'm talking about.

What are the biggest barriers by establishing trust?
One of the biggest barriers to establish trust is lying. I think it is key to be honest. And don't bluff. 

If people aren't sure, get clarity. You must work out what the other person really means. Because so often we make an assumption they must be feeling like this, and we talk to them as if we know how they feel. But you never really understand how someone else feels.  You can never walk in someone else's shoes.

Just because they don't say what you think they should say, or they don't agree with what you agree with, doesn't make them wrong. It just makes them different. And what you need to do is to understand why they're seeing the world in that way. What we tend to do, is say: "You're wrong. This is how long I say you're wrong. Who says you're right". And you get that silly argument. So the big thing is to say: "Look, I don't know. Tell me what it is? Or why you feel that way?" And then get understanding. That's true empathy. Empathy is understanding. Every single person is unique and you have to treat that person as an individual. And if they feel that way, then ask why are they feeling that way. Once you understand why they're feeling that way, then you at least have a chance to persuade them - maybe there's another way of looking at it. But don't say they're wrong. They're not wrong, they're just different. 

Absolutely. If you're talking to people who call themselves terrorists, you've got to find out why they're doing what they're doing. People don't grow up to be terrorists. They feel they've got a grievance, a genuine grievance and no one's listening to them. Because no one listens to them they make you listen, and they make you listening by being horrible. If you can't get your way by talking to people and by trying to get people to listen to you, then you find a way to make them listen. 

We used to think that business people are the ones who just give orders, not the ones who listen. You have worked with many business people, with many high level managers. So why listening could be crucial for business success?
Because you have to understand how your workers are feeling. You have to understand the best way of getting the best out of everybody. If you're in charge of a company then generally speaking, you're only really in charge of three or four people who sit immediately below you. And then those three or four people are in charge of five people that sit immediately below them. And then those five people are in charge of ten people that sit immediately below them. But you rarely are in charge of more than five or ten people. And you should understand each one of those as an individual. Because then you'll get the best from them. Some people need to be told what to do. Some people need to be asked what they can do. Some people need to be encouraged, some people don't need encouragement. You just have to work every single person out. The great leaders understand the people they're dealing with. 

Oh, we can make ourselves hostages by becoming victims. People seem to feel they get themselves in a situation that they can't get out of. And it's almost like they give away their control and they give away choice. I always think you have a choice. You may have to wait a bit of time to be able to have that choice. But you have a choice of how you react to things - this thing happened to me. My choice is how I react to it.